--- Log opened Wed Oct 20 17:05:51 2010
17:05 < the_g_cat> anyway, here I am... :-P
17:06 < the_g_cat> anyone knows what this "437: thegcat Nick/channel is temporarily unavailable" <= ist about?
17:07 < joink> the_g_cat: probably a netsplit issue
17:07 <+Khalsa> It's still connected on gibson - ghost it
17:07 -!- salvor [d41e7a87@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.30.122.135] has joined #redmine-dev
17:07 <+Khalsa> salvor: \o/
17:07 < salvor> Hello!
17:07 < the_g_cat> salvor /o\
17:08 < salvor> Khalsa, the_g_cat: hi :)
17:08 < edavis10> shall we get started?
17:09 < meineerde> absolutly.
17:09 <+Khalsa> indeed
17:09 < edavis10> Khalsa: you said you could lead the first part a bit?
17:09 <+Khalsa> Ok sure
17:10 <+Khalsa> yeah so pretty much everyone knows everyone here, if not I'm Muntek, and the rest of the relevant list is here: http://www.redmine.org/wiki/redmine/TeamLeadMeeting3
17:10 <+Khalsa> Add yourself if you haven't
17:10 -!- igor13 [~ibalk@173-125-71-162.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
17:11 <+Khalsa> We'll start with the checkins from the leads
17:11 <+Khalsa> I'll go ahead and start  -
17:11 <+Khalsa> Docs are looking good we have the beta of the newly created user docs going well
17:12 < edavis10> Khalsa: can you op me when you get a sec (update topic)
17:12 -!- mode/#redmine-dev [+o Khalsa] by ChanServ
17:12 -!- mode/#redmine-dev [+o edavis10] by Khalsa
17:12 -!- edavis10 changed the topic of #redmine-dev to: Information about dev meetings is at http://www.redmine.org/wiki/redmine/DevMeetings - http://www.redmine.org/wiki/redmine/TeamLeadMeeting3
17:12 <@Khalsa> You can see them here: http://docs.redmight.com/ - if you want to help ping me
17:12 <@Khalsa> meineerde is working on a plugin to help make them more usable (namely css and sidebar issues)
17:13 <@Khalsa> so docs have had some fair movement, though we can always use more help.
17:13 <@edavis10> Khalsa: those public now? (can I tweet?)
17:13 <@Khalsa> I don't know the chances of moving the new docs to redmine.org, due to the css restrictions
17:13 <@Khalsa> edavis10: yeah go ahead and tweet
17:13 < salvor> anything about translations (how do we maintain, when, etc.) ?
17:13 <@Khalsa> edavis10: focus on getting help fixing them if you can :)
17:14 <@Khalsa> salvor: I'd say once we get them cleaned up with meineerde's plugins - that would be the time to start translations
17:14 <@Khalsa> also there are a handful of pages that are not "OK" (you will see this at the top) that need confirmation of 1.x feature changes
17:15 < meineerde> Khalsa: I'm still unsure if it is a good idea to handle them as a "normal" wiki page. or as a separate object... But well, I think, I'm figuring it out...
17:15 <@Khalsa> I know there are a bunch of issues on r.o assigned to me that need some action, and I will act on those probably starting next week
17:15 -!- ibalk [~ibalk@173-125-71-162.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #redmine-dev
17:15 < meineerde> Also please applause Khalsa for his awesome work of ripping the docs out of his contacts hands :)
17:15 <@Khalsa> Any questions about docs before we move on?
17:16 <@edavis10> Khalsa: yes
17:16 < ibalk> khalsa i put someone on docks hopefully will have some version in november
17:16 <@edavis10> Khalsa: so 1) they are still a work in progress as far as writing them is concerned, correct? 2) they need some extra support to be added to Redmine.org (css and/or code).  Correct?
17:16 < meineerde> Khalsa: a minor proposal: can we get rid of most of the colorful icons in the docs?
17:17 -!- ibalk is now known as igor13
17:17 <@Khalsa> edavis10: yes absolutelly, they still need some feature checking and flushing out but they are definetly in a useable state now, 2 - yes these are the issues meineerde is hoping to create plugins for
17:17 <@Khalsa> meineerde: which/why ?
17:18 < meineerde> Khalsa: it's a bit to "flashy" for my taste. kinda hard to read...
17:18 <@Khalsa> meineerde: we can dull down the icons much more easily once the css is 'set'
17:19 < meineerde> Khalsa: understood. I will do my task.
17:19 <@edavis10> Khalsa: I wonder if we can start porting them now and just have the non-supported markup render into nothing (e.g. stripped out)
17:19 <@Khalsa> meineerde: these were donated by that same user, on the roadmap is changing these to some CC-compatible icons
17:19 <@edavis10> Khalsa: but very good job, I get a lot of negative feedback about the existing docs
17:20 <@Khalsa> edavis10: for end-users these docs are 1000x better
17:20 <@Khalsa> the admin and developer docs still need some loving, mostly because I don't have knowledge on these to use
17:20 <@edavis10> Khalsa: agreed
17:20 <@Khalsa> or for the admin stuff I have some internal notes I need to extract still
17:22 < salvor> (+1 for the awesome job ; sorry I didn't help that much, congrats for all you've done)
17:23 <@edavis10> Khalsa: should I talk about the development team now?
17:23 <@Khalsa> the_g_cat: want to talk about issue triage before edavis10 takes over for the rest of the teams?
17:23 <@edavis10> haha
17:23 <@Khalsa> :D
17:24 <@edavis10> if team.lead.missing? then team.lead = edavis10 end
17:24 < the_g_cat> mmh, not much to say about triage, other than a lot of people seem to use trunk without really knowing what that's implying
17:24 < the_g_cat> i.e. each time edavis10 breaks something, I have 3 more issues to take care of
17:24  * the_g_cat coughs 
17:24 < the_g_cat> ;-)
17:24  * edavis10 creates an unstable-trunk branch ;)
17:24 < meineerde> until recently, trunk was a rather save bet. Only as edavis10 started messing with routes, some issues occured
17:25 < meineerde> but I think, this is okay.
17:25 < the_g_cat> meineerde: not only that
17:25 <@Khalsa> I think we can address that a little bit on the redmineinstall page, just mention that trunk is currently slightly unstable - use a release
17:25 < salvor> I have a problem about triage, if I can...
17:25 <@edavis10> the_g_cat: would a News item help with that? e.g. "trunk will be unstalbe for the next X months, please don't use in production unless you know what you are doing."
17:25 < salvor> igor13 is not in the list of possible assignees, is it normal ?
17:25 -!- ibalk [~ibalk@173-125-71-162.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #redmine-dev
17:25 -!- igor13 [~ibalk@173-125-71-162.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
17:25 -!- ibalk is now known as igor13
17:25 < the_g_cat> but it wasn't meant as a negative problem towards edavis10, rather that we should make really clear that trunk is not meant to be stable
17:25  * igor13 has bad connection
17:26 <@edavis10> salvor: igor13 isn't a Project member. igor13 want to open an issue for JPL about that?
17:26 < the_g_cat> edavis10: no, trunk _is_ unstable, period
17:26 < salvor> edavis10: as team lead for UX he should
17:26 <@edavis10> igor13: I'll do it for you
17:26 < meineerde> hmmm, I think, the other way round that we should try to make it more stable
17:26 < meineerde> not release-stable, just stable enough for me to be usable :)
17:27 <@edavis10> meineerde: the problem with making trunk stable is there is no way to make large changes to Redmine then.
17:27 <@Khalsa> ^
17:27 < meineerde> edavis10: if we move to git (hint, hint), we could open feature-branches
17:27 <@edavis10> meineerde: we have the tags and stable branches and a 6 month release cycle now for users to stay up to date
17:27 < salvor> edavis10: topic branches ? :(
17:27 <@Khalsa> I would rather have trunk unstable and changes in than stable
17:27 < the_g_cat> meineerde: it's stable enough for me too, but some less savvy people who don't know how to apply patches and use trunk is somewhat hard to support
17:28 <@Khalsa> plus, we have regular point releases now - people should use them
17:28 <@edavis10> moving to git will take a lot of work and signoff.
17:28 < meineerde> on the other hand, if we keep the ~6 month release cycle, it should also be okay. We just have to make sure to get the thing stable until a release
17:28 < the_g_cat> edavis10: moving to git won't make trunk more stable ;-)
17:28 <@edavis10> part of the unstable is my fault, I'm not testing as hard as I can be so minor bugs crep in.
17:29 -!- ibalk [~ibalk@173-125-71-162.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #redmine-dev
17:29 < meineerde> the 1.0 release with a few ugly bugs in it were a bit unfortunate...
17:29 <@edavis10> meineerde: yea, 1.0 was rushed out through the RC stage and we lost a lot of help
17:30 <@edavis10> back to the_g_cat's issue, should we make some kind of notice that "trunk is unstable"?
17:30 -!- igor13 [~ibalk@173-125-71-162.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
17:30 <@Khalsa> edavis10: seconded
17:31 < meineerde> edavis10: +1
17:31 < the_g_cat> I can live with that too
17:31 < ibalk> edavis10 +1
17:31 < salvor> agreed
17:31 < joink> +1 Would be nice, but trunk is per definition unstable :)
17:31 -!- ibalk is now known as igo13r
17:31 < meineerde> this should then be included into the release policy
17:31 -!- igo13r is now known as igor13
17:31 <@edavis10> News item + note to Install/Upgrade?
17:31 <@edavis10> meineerde: "this" ?
17:31 < the_g_cat> would work for me
17:32 <@edavis10> I can add the news item, who wants to update the docs?
17:32 < meineerde> edavis10: trunk being unstable and the string advisory to ionly use stable releases in production
17:32 <@Khalsa> I'll take the note on redmineinstall page
17:33 <@edavis10> meineerde: added
17:34 < the_g_cat> not really much else from me then
17:34 <@edavis10> the_g_cat: Question
17:35 <@edavis10> the_g_cat: has our process of passing issues to me to feedback or commits been working?
17:35 < the_g_cat> mostly yes, if not I'll ping you around here :-)
17:36 <@edavis10> ok, I just wanted to check to make sure
17:36 < salvor> is there anything to do against spam users / users who think this is a demo instance ?
17:36 < the_g_cat> <blink> ! :-D
17:36 < meineerde> salvor: there are about 1-3 issue I close every day
17:37 < salvor> yes I noticed that ;) I close some issues too sometimes...
17:37 < meineerde> unfortunately, we are currently unable to delete users, delete wiki pages or delete forum posts
17:37 <@edavis10> salvor: I just delete or clear the spam content I can and open an issue for JPL to lock the user
17:37 < meineerde> to the code of conduct is not really enforced (apart from the two users locked by jpl because of explicit tickets)
17:37 < the_g_cat> same procedure here
17:38 <@Khalsa> meineerde: those were only done cause I sent him multiple emails about it
17:38 < salvor> yes, but it's really annoying, don't you think so ?
17:38 < salvor> maybe JPL could give us more permissions about that
17:38 <@Khalsa> salvor: underlying issue is we don't have access to redmine.org to actively enforce it
17:38 <@edavis10> salvor: yes but until we get more permissions or the ability to create/install plugins for it, it will have to do
17:38 <@edavis10> salvor: get in line for permissions, I've been asking for over a year now
17:39 < salvor> ok, I'll try my best to convince him
17:39 < meineerde> salvor: yes, but what can you do about it? Let the message brightly flash? Or let every user actually type: "This is not a test issue."?
17:39 <@edavis10> meineerde: <blink>
17:40 < meineerde> salvor: +1
17:40 < salvor> meineerde: at least we could have permissions to delete spam users ourselves, and delete issues too
17:40 < joink> meineerde: if you check if the user have not created any issues/content before, the nag message could be quite intrusive.
17:40 < salvor> anyway, next subject :)
17:41 <@Khalsa> I'm not going to bring up the governence issue here (again), but lots of these issues relate back to that
17:42 < meineerde> Khalsa: I would like to include a note into the minutes to try to get JPL in here next time (i.e. before 1.1) to specifically discuss governance.
17:42 < meineerde> but that would be all for today.
17:42 <@Khalsa> edavis10: rest of team updates please :)
17:43 <@edavis10> Khalsa: not all of them
17:43 <@edavis10> Development team
17:43 < salvor> sent him an email, he wasn't at home..
17:43 < salvor> maybe he will try to join us later
17:43 <@edavis10> 1) Any thoughts about me taking the lead on this team?
17:44 < meineerde> edavis10: you are the most active core dev currently. if not you, than nobody.
17:44 < salvor> does it make any difference ?
17:44 <@Khalsa> 1 - This is a governence issue, but for all practical considerations ou already are as JPL is awol and doesn't answer roadmap issues/emails
17:44 < salvor> in reality, you are the team lead these months..
17:44 <@edavis10> salvor: I'd like to start setting up subteams so people can contribute more
17:44 -!- igor13 [~ibalk@173-125-71-162.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
17:45 <@edavis10> (and led their own parts)
17:46 -!- ibalk [~ibalk@173-125-71-162.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #redmine-dev
17:46 <@edavis10> ok, I'll take over the lead for now. JPL can have it back when he's more active again
17:46 -!- ibalk is now known as igor13
17:47 < salvor> I think everybody would be fine with that (including him I presume)
17:47 <@edavis10> I've been doing a lot of refactoring of the controllers to make it easier to add in some more apis for 1.1. Some are ready but others still need a lot of work.
17:47 <@edavis10> these have been causing some bugs to appear, which the_g_cat has really helped out with fixing
17:48 <@edavis10> salvor has also done a great job over the past few months with bugs and applying patches. It's helped me a lot and I"m sure many users are grateful
17:48 < salvor> as everybody knows trunk is unstable, there's no pb with that
17:49  * salvor blushes..
17:49 <@edavis10> meineerde, the_g_cat, and Khalsa have also been great with sending me git patches for trunk.  I've been really happy with the quality of them and they are saving me a ton of time.
17:50 < salvor> already said that, but I really think we need to enlarge the committers team so that you don't have to review every tiniest thing
17:50 <@edavis10> overall, I think the Dev process is starting to come togeather nicely.  There are still rough edges but it's workable.
17:50 < salvor> yes
17:51 -!- igor13 [~ibalk@173-125-71-162.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
17:51 <@edavis10> Big thing for me, if I compare Redmine Dev one year ago it was very solo. Not many people were talking and everyone worked on their own code.  Now, I feel it's actually a team of people working togeather.
17:51 -!- ibalk [~ibalk@173-125-71-162.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #redmine-dev
17:51 <@edavis10> salvor: +1, more contributors is good
17:51 < the_g_cat> :-)
17:51 <@edavis10> So basically, thanks!
17:51 -!- ibalk is now known as igor13
17:52 <@edavis10> I have more comments about 1.1 but I'll save them for later
17:52 <@edavis10> Any questions or comments about Dev before I move on?
17:52 <@edavis10> (Plugin team next)
17:52 <@Khalsa> neg
17:53 <@edavis10> 3 2 1 ...
17:54 < salvor> go
17:54 <@edavis10> Plugin team: not much work here.  The plugin API is pretty stable now, though there are a few hook requests.
17:54 <@edavis10> One big thing that needs to be thought about for 1.1 is deprecating old hooks and APIs
17:55 <@edavis10> I have some thoughts about it that I'll enter into an issue but I see that being a problem the closer we get
17:55 <@edavis10> s/we get/trunk gets away from the stable branch/
17:56 < the_g_cat> edavis10: are you still planning on throwing out hooks but the view hooks?
17:56 -!- igor13 [~ibalk@173-125-71-162.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
17:56 <@edavis10> the_g_cat: no hard plans but they need to be reviewed.  Will be post 1.1 unless someone wants to look at them (no rush)
17:57 < salvor> what about our policy no adding new hooks then ?
17:57 < salvor> s/no/on/
17:57 < meineerde> edavis10: basically I support this. the remaining hooks in the controller can be removed if the large methods are cut into smaller ones (and some private methods)
17:57 <@edavis10> another update is I want to try to start moving some of the Redmine core code into official plugins.  Going to start with OpenID and LDAP auth.
17:58 <@Khalsa> edavis10: I'll be leaving soon to catch a flight, I'll review the meeting log and post it once I'm at the airport. Please conduct the rest of the meeting :)
17:58 <@edavis10> salvor: mostly the policy is "is it named correctly? is it in a useful place for other developers? would I use this hook?" :)
17:58 < meineerde> Khalsa: thanks for your time. Have a good ride.
17:58 <@edavis10> Khalsa: thanks, anyone logging?
17:59 <@Khalsa> edavis10: I always log everything always
17:59 <@edavis10> k
17:59 < salvor> do we talk now about rails upgrade ? it's conditionned nearly exclusively by plugins..
17:59 <@edavis10> meineerde: the plugins could use some more docs about the different ways of hooking, that's like Khalsa's comment about developer docs
18:00 <@edavis10> salvor: after the updates
18:00 < salvor> ok
18:00 < meineerde> edavis10: yeah. that's still in my todo list: how to override methods and include stuff
18:00 < meineerde> wiki:Hooks at the bottom :)
18:00 <@edavis10> so that's pretty much the plugins. Nothing big right now, but we need to think ahead a bit since we are post 1.0 now
18:00 < gepetto> meineerde: wiki: wiki:Hooks is http://www.redmine.org/projects/redmine/wiki/Hooks "Redmine - Hooks - Redmine"
18:01 < salvor> edavis10: how about "core plugins" organization ?
18:01 < meineerde> edavis10: I (or better phlebas) have some special plugins to present. do you like it now or later?
18:01 < salvor> do we put them in a specific project under redmine.org ? specific website like radiant ?
18:01 <@edavis10> meineerde: later, we have the Journals as a whole adgenda item
18:01 < meineerde> k.
18:02 <@edavis10> salvor: still on Redmine.org with a category.  They will still be bundled with the main install so users won't know the difference
18:02 < meineerde> salvor: for now, I would develop inside the main repo.
18:03 < salvor> ok
18:03 <@edavis10> salvor meineerde: like how Redmine's acts_as_activity and the others are done
18:03 <@edavis10> Releae team now
18:03 <@edavis10> Release rather. I've done enough releases now that I've created a process for them wiki:ReleaseProcess
18:03 < gepetto> edavis10: wiki:ReleaseProcess is http://www.redmine.org/projects/redmine/wiki/ReleaseProcess "Redmine - ReleaseProcess - Redmine"
18:04 <@edavis10> still all manual but I'm going ot start to automate parts of it for the 1.0.3 release (end October)
18:05 <@edavis10> haven't seen any bugs or problems in the prcess, anyone seen anything? (other than actual code bugs)
18:05 <@edavis10> (and FYI: Redmine has been on the top of Rubyforge's active list for weeks. And is close to 350,000 downloads.)
18:06 < meineerde> edavis10: It all went great. Thanks for your time here.
18:06 <@edavis10> k
18:07 <@edavis10> Translations Team. I don't think Azamat is here.
18:07 < salvor> the process is a bit obscure to me
18:07 <@edavis10> salvor: the release process?
18:07 < khaase> edavis10: to be fair, no one is using rubyforge anymore
18:07 < salvor> I mean the translations, is it documented somewhere ?
18:07 <@edavis10> salvor: ah, not really
18:08 <@Khalsa> Pretty much azamat handles all of it :)
18:08 < salvor> introducing english translations everywhere when we add a new key may not be the best way to go
18:08 <@edavis10> We are building some scripts to make i18n changes easier, thanks to the_g_cat.  Most of these are Rake in the locales namespace.
18:08 < salvor> yes, seen it
18:09 <@edavis10> salvor: the en ones are duplicated so translaters can find them in their locales
18:09 < the_g_cat> salvor: i18n 0.4 has an option to specify a default
18:09 < salvor> it's pretty difficult to see what percentage of each locale file is up to date
18:09 < the_g_cat> we won't have to duplicate them anymore once we use that
18:09 < salvor> the_g_cat: great! ok
18:10 < salvor> edavis10: yes, understood.
18:10 <@edavis10> the_g_cat: interesting. Might want to ask Azamat what he thinks.  I'm ok running the update locales script myself but I'm just using :en
18:10 <@edavis10> going to go to the next team, we need to keep moving :)
18:10 < the_g_cat> I think we could default to en in the future, have en as a default, and translators can submit the strings missing in their locale
18:11 <@edavis10> the_g_cat: yea, that might work
18:11 <@edavis10> PR team: I've been keeping up on twitter and trying to blog about Redmine as much as possible.  Seeing a lot of new projects and companies start using Redmine now.
18:12 <@Khalsa> Any movement on redmineblog.com?
18:12 <@edavis10> From the looks of it, we are directly competing with Jira now. Most of the people I talk to barely even consider Trac anymore due to the lack of multi-project.
18:12 <@edavis10> Khalsa: first item after the updates, which I have some good news about... :)
18:13 <@edavis10> I've also been talking with James from puppet labs and I might be able to do a in-person hackfest/bugmash at their offices.
18:14 <@edavis10> still in planning but it would help get some more people into the project (lot of local Rails developers and Redmine users)
18:14 <@Khalsa> In portland?
18:14 <@edavis10> Summary: not a lot of activity but a few things going on and things are improving.
18:14 <@edavis10> Khalsa: yes, in Portland.
18:15 <@edavis10> until Redmine World Tour 2012 (joking.... maybe)
18:15 <@edavis10> Is Igor around for UX?
18:15 < meineerde> There is still the idea of wiki:RedmineCamp but nothing substantial by now
18:15 < gepetto> meineerde: wiki:RedmineCamp is http://www.redmine.org/projects/redmine/wiki/RedmineCamp "Redmine - RedmineCamp - Redmine"
18:16 <@edavis10> meineerde: yea, I still like that idea but I want to try a smaller event first.  Unless someone else wants to run it :)
18:16 <@Khalsa> Party at my house!
18:16 < the_g_cat> Khalsa: my ticket's on you ;-)
18:17 < meineerde> edavis10: alright. we might come up with something in berlin first too. redmine world meeting can then be done sometimes next year or so...
18:17 <@edavis10> meineerde: I have a passport now :)
18:17 < meineerde> edavis10: YAY!
18:17 <@edavis10> the_g_cat: want to talk about user support a bit to wrap up?
18:17 <@edavis10> (wrap up this part)
18:18 < the_g_cat> mmh, I'm under the impression more and more people try to fit redmine into a whole it's not shaped to fill and swing by the forums waiting for some magic to happen
18:19 < the_g_cat> which is somehow good because more people use redmine
18:19 < the_g_cat> but it seems what redmine can't do isn't always clear to everyone
18:19 < the_g_cat> not much we can do about that though
18:20 < the_g_cat> having the REST stuff somewhat more complete/stable would probably be a step in the right direction though
18:20 <@edavis10> the_g_cat: anything we can do to improve it? (e.g. private issues will make Redmine as a helpdesk work)
18:20 <@edavis10> REST? for integrations?
18:20 < the_g_cat> yes
18:20 <@edavis10> good point
18:21 -!- Igor13 [~ibalk@c-98-216-152-43.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #redmine-dev
18:21 < meineerde> edavis10: that's exactly the point. we are wildering in jira territories (with workflows and management stuff) and in otrs land with helpdesk funcitonality
18:21 < the_g_cat> and the other stuff: private issues, complete control over what fields to show to which role, and so on
18:21  * Igor13 is really sorry for his connection
18:22 <@edavis10> is that a place we want to wander into in the long term? (assuming development can keep up)
18:22 < the_g_cat> or some totally (half-wonk) stuff, like randomised issue IDs (whatever that is good for, not sure I got it)
18:22 <@Khalsa> the_g_cat: help desk
18:23 < Igor13> i personally thing we should wonder more in to UX before adding new major functions
18:23 < meineerde> edavis10: some things are good (like private issues and a more granular permission system) but the extreme like permissions for each field should be avoided
18:23 < Igor13> meineerde +1
18:23 < the_g_cat> Khalsa: no, it was more "I don't want other parts of the company being able to poll some links and make metrics about other parts of the company...", so a trust issue I guess
18:23 <@edavis10> meineerde: what about supporting plugins for that? non-core
18:24  * edavis10 is thinking long term vision type things
18:24  * Khalsa ^C+ad
18:24 < meineerde> edavis10: probably a good idea. but then, the permission system must become pluggable and extensible
18:25  * salvor would really like to see those things in plugins
18:25 < meineerde> (and permissions should be defined by the model, not by the controller)
18:25 <@edavis10> ok
18:25  * Igor13 would like to see whole Redmine more MVC like with better separation between data, business logic and UI
18:25 <@edavis10> Igor13: good thing the UX team is next ;)
18:26 < salvor> ahah
18:26 <@edavis10> the_g_cat: other than those requests, anything else with user support?
18:26 < Igor13> edavis10 thats good as I got better connection lets hope it would be stable long enouph
18:26 < the_g_cat> nope
18:26 <@edavis10> the_g_cat: good
18:26 <@edavis10> Igor13: go ahead
18:27  * edavis10 still wants to talk about the redmien blog and 1.1 features before the end of the meeting
18:28 < Igor13> edavis10 short term or long term? because realistically I do not see  anything of what i will propose as going into 1.1
18:28 < Igor13> well actually small things might
18:28 < the_g_cat> left handside project menu! :-)
18:29 <@edavis10> Igor13: this is mostly an update. What has UX done, what problems does it have, etc. Not really suited for long term planning.
18:31 < Igor13> we have list of about 20-30 fixes small or big we would like to see implemented at some point (some where discussed on forum like issue relations and merge of documents)
18:31 < Igor13> some just sitting in my private system
18:31 < Igor13> the question I have is how do we do about implementation of them
18:31 < Igor13> given the limited resources edavis10 has
18:31 <@edavis10> they need to be issues on redmine.org first, so people can comment on them
18:32 <@edavis10> then patches would be good, unless it's something really cool that I want to do in my "spare time".
18:32 < Igor13> we have two forumtopics on redmine.org with bunch of comments on issue relations and merge of files and documents
18:32 < meineerde> edavis10: you are lying dude. You said, you have no spare time :p
18:33 < Igor13> i will create more issues on other staff in next 2 weeks as i finally got some time for typing staff in :)
18:33 <@edavis10> meineerde: "spare time" is a variable which is -100 right now
18:33 < Igor13> edavis10 :)
18:33 <@edavis10> Igor13: have those forum topics been discussed enough to be scoped and turned into issues?
18:33 < Igor13> but in general I think we should work out some kind of standard workflow
18:33 < Igor13> edavis10 i think so
18:34 < meineerde> Igor13: could you try to summarize the forum topics into an issue for implementation?
18:34 < Igor13> meineerde thats what I was going to do next 2 weeks
18:35 <@edavis10> Igor13: a workflow would work but I always perfer to work without a standard one first and see what kind of workflow emerges (i.e. not trying to over process something)
18:35 < meineerde> Igor13: great. Then we can do it. Merging files and docs shouldn't be that hard datastructure wise...
18:35 < Igor13> meineerde I think so as well
18:35 <@edavis10> meineerde just signed up!
18:35 < meineerde> edavis10: and I'm actually kinda interested. Just don't know when...
18:36 <@edavis10> Igor13: big thing for me is to try and do these in stages. If we try to do them all at once, nothing will get done.
18:36 <@edavis10> meineerde: as I
18:36 < Igor13> edavis10 actually i think it's already emerged in the form that we suggest something from UX group, discuss on forum, 4-5 month later turn into issues
18:36 < Igor13> edavis10 agreed
18:37 < Igor13> edavis10 i will try to split them into iterations next week or so
18:37 <@edavis10> great
18:37 < Igor13> edavis10 as for example merge of files and docs if big UI overhaul
18:37 < the_g_cat> I'd have one "meta"-question about using plugins with compiled parts, don't know when that would fit
18:37  * Igor13 was kind of overloaded with unrelated things over last 2.5 month :(
18:39 <@edavis10> Igor13: any other UX news?
18:39 < Igor13> also guys I would open up demo at www.taskpoint.com/v1 in a week time frame as well with what we did to UX and would love to see your feedback on what of that should go back to the core
18:39 < Igor13> we would love to contribute some of our code back to core redmine
18:40 < Igor13> but the question is what you guys want to see there
18:40 < Igor13> just a disclaimer it's a lot different in some parts then core
18:40 <@edavis10> great, let me know once it's ready. A forum thread in Development would be best if it's public
18:41 < Igor13> edavis10 will let you know, it's not public yet no
18:41 < Igor13> still experimental
18:41 < Igor13> the public one but like 3 month old is at www.taskpoint.com/demo still a lot different then core
18:41 <@edavis10> I think we need to move on, we are almost at 2 hours and still have some major discussion points
18:41 < the_g_cat> ACK
18:42 < meineerde> are any teams left?
18:42 <@edavis10> Igor13: thanks for the update, I'm interesting is seeing what you have when it's ready.
18:42 <@edavis10> meineerde: no teams, now topics.
18:42 <@edavis10> First topic is the redmineblog. I'll make it quick...
18:43 < Igor13> edavis10 quick question any particular reason you do not like jquery in the redmine?
18:43 <@edavis10> I haven't been able to really write about Redmine there that much but last night I've done a lot to open it up to new contributors.
18:43 <@edavis10> Igor13: can you open a forum thread on that? It's a long answer :)
18:44 <@edavis10> still a work in progress but most of the content is now at http://github.com/edavis10/redmineblog and I'll be moving the site over to this code soon
18:44 < Igor13> edavis10 ok will do
18:45 <@edavis10> my goal is to let people write their own posts for the blog and get more documentation for Redmine. More "here is how I use Redmine", tutorials, and review content
18:45 <@edavis10> once it's ready and live, I'll mention it on the forums/news so everyone will know it's there.
18:46 <@edavis10> (also would be useful to have people edit older content like the Gmail post I have)
18:46 <@edavis10> FIN
18:46 < the_g_cat> edavis10: short "admin" tricks and such, or more user-oriented?
18:46 <@edavis10> the_g_cat: both Redmine Admin and User focused
18:46 < the_g_cat> ok
18:46 < the_g_cat> I might have some stuff for admins then ^_^"
18:46 <@edavis10> the_g_cat: not developer or plugin developer though. (other than major news like Rails 3 support, etc)
18:47 <@edavis10> the_g_cat: good
18:47 <@edavis10> next topic is a big one, what are our plans for Redmine 1.1
18:47 < the_g_cat> edavis10: make it look like whitehouse.org out of a single plugin
18:47  * the_g_cat ducks
18:48 <@edavis10> random
18:48 <@edavis10> I'll start with 1.1
18:49 <@edavis10> It's scheduled to be released in December (as RC probably) so we will be feature freezing at the start of December (little over a month away)
18:49 <@edavis10> I've posted some thoughts about it but I haven't been able to keep to my schedule I hoped http://www.redmine.org/boards/4/topics/17065
18:50 <@edavis10> seeing that we really only have a month left, we need to decide what major features should 1.1 have
18:50 < the_g_cat> I don't think we will make rails 3, will we?
18:50 <@edavis10> It realy has:
18:50 <@edavis10> * New Gantt chart (buggy but working)
18:50 < meineerde> edavis10: from the topics, I think, we should focus on gantt and the rest stuff.
18:50 <@edavis10> * code cleanup
18:50 < the_g_cat> agreed, Gantt, cleanup/REST
18:50 <@edavis10> * better email notification options
18:50 < meineerde> extracting ldap and openid is minor priority for me, rails 3 is not going to happen for 1.1
18:51 < the_g_cat> edavis10: regarding the mail notifications, you seem to have a "grander" scheme, care to elaborate?
18:52 <@edavis10> the_g_cat: just trying to make it easier to have fine grained control over when you are notified.  And also refacotring notifications so they happen in a singe area of code instead of all over the place.
18:52 < meineerde> edavis10: (this is also part of acts_as_journalized btw)
18:52 <@edavis10> the_g_cat: only real new feautures would be more options and maybe a plugin api for adding your own. (post 1.1 though)
18:52  * Igor13 personally would love to see end user to be able to set up their personal notifications via UI rather admin doing it via command line
18:53 <@edavis10> Igor13: it already have a web UI for admins and users
18:53 <@edavis10> My Account
18:53 < Igor13> edavis10 i mean notification when issue due date is approaching
18:53 <@edavis10> unless you are talking about Redminders
18:53 < Igor13> edavis10 yes about them
18:53 < meineerde> edavis10: what is missing is selecting what notification types interest me.
18:54 < the_g_cat> mmh, I had thought about that some times too, and maybe even adding a digest option
18:54 <@edavis10> reminders would need some work for that, would be a good feature request but needs some infrastructure first
18:54 < the_g_cat> haven't gotten anywhere near it though
18:54 <@edavis10> meineerde: so like "wiki and issue events only" ?
18:54 < meineerde> yes.
18:55 < phlebas> edavis10: that would be pretty easy to do
18:55 <@edavis10> meineerde: that's also where I'd like to take notifications. Probably not for 1.1 (unless someone wants to do it)
18:55 < phlebas> with journals
18:55 <@edavis10> phlebas: assuming only journals create notifications which might not be the case.  A standard interface to notifications would work I'd think (where journals would call the interface)
18:56 <@edavis10> since this is a big one, should we 1) stay on Rails 2.3.5, 2) upgrade to Rails 2.3.latest, or 3) try to upgrade to Rails 3 (potential of breaking plugins)
18:57 < meineerde> I would stay on 2.3.5 for 1.1 but upgrade to 2.3.head directly after release.
18:57 < the_g_cat> edavis10: well, we'd need an unified interface for events and mail notifications then, they really are the same thing I'd say
18:58 < phlebas> the_g_cat: journals could be events, because they hold the changes
18:58 < phlebas> journal creation could trigger mail notification
18:58  * Igor13 would think that move to Rails 3 is not viable at this moment
18:58 < Igor13> the_g_cat +1
18:59 < salvor> I tried to make tiny engines plugins work on Rails 3, didn't managed to do that (migrations, view overriding, etc. are not present in core, and engines plugin is not maintained anymore for Rails 3.x)
18:59 < salvor> so "NO" to Rails 3
18:59 <@edavis10> meineerde: I would agree but not on the upgrade right away. It would split trunk/stable and might have a support cost. I'd rather upgrade more into a release where trunk/stable have already diverged (e.g. like where we are now with 1.1./1.0.3)
18:59 <@edavis10> salvor: my fears too. Even after I talked with the core team about it, they must have forgot about it and decided to rewrite things.
19:00 < salvor> yes, saw your discussions with wycats
19:00 < salvor> maybe with Rails 3.1
19:00 <@edavis10> from what I've heard the core focus of Rails 3.1 is engines but I don't know if their "engines" will be compatibable or upgrade-able from our "engines"
19:01  * Igor13 has to go sorry guys
19:01 <@edavis10> Igor13: thanks for coming
19:01 < salvor> anyway, maybe 2.3.10 would be OK, but maybe it will be too short for 1.1
19:01 <@edavis10> we might run a bit late today
19:01 < salvor> we already know some things break with 2.3.8+
19:02 <@edavis10> salvor: yea though we need to watch for security bugs being so far back on 2.3
19:02 < meineerde> edavis10: nothing came up by now
19:03 <@edavis10> any other opinions about Rails versions or are we in agreement that 1.1 will be Rails 2.3.5 still?
19:03 < meineerde> to summarize: keep 1.1. on rails 2.3.5, upgrade to 2.3.latest sometime after release. Update to 3.x once the engines upgrade path is sorted out.
19:03 -!- MikeXIII [~Mike@bas8-montreal28-1279774628.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
19:03 < salvor> ok for me
19:04 < the_g_cat> meineerde's proposition is ok
19:04 <@edavis10> ok, Redmine 1.1 will be 2.3.5 then
19:05 < meineerde> okay. I think, we have a consent here. We should move on.
19:05 <@edavis10> so other features for 1.1 will be: finishing the Gantt charts and adding REST apis.
19:06 <@edavis10> I know issues and projects are "done" but they are bugging as hell and really hard to use.  I'll fix them but what other APIs should be commit to for 1.1?
19:06 < the_g_cat> edavis10: wiki is IIRC the most asked for
19:06 < salvor> users ?
19:07 < the_g_cat> and maybe users
19:07 < phlebas> users
19:07 < the_g_cat> groups maybe too :-P
19:07 < salvor> glurps
19:07 < salvor> I hate current groups :(
19:08 <@edavis10> salvor: don't you mean principals ;)
19:08 < meineerde> salvor: +1
19:08  * edavis10 checks his refactorings
19:08 < the_g_cat> so do I, I'm planning on chaning the groups to reflect project memberships...
19:08 < salvor> principals too... STI + class reloading is a nightmare in plugins
19:09 <@edavis10> users are ready for REST
19:09 <@edavis10> I'm working on Wikis now
19:10 <@edavis10> time entries, issue moves, project enumerations, files, versions, and news are also ready
19:10 <@edavis10> I vote for users, files, time entries, and news myself. (I plan on using them)
19:11 < meineerde> edavis10: I can live with that.
19:11 <@edavis10> I'm not making a decision, just saying what I'd use :)
19:11 < salvor> users & news for me.
19:12 < meineerde> and so, it becomes a decision :)
19:12 < salvor> so easy :)
19:12 <@edavis10> how about users, news, and files for 1.1?
19:12 <@edavis10> (my idea with files is so scripts can use the API to attach files for releases and things like that)
19:13 < salvor> sorry I've got to go, my girlfriend will kill me if I'm not at home before 8pm...
19:13 < salvor> ok for me ;) thanks for this great meeting guys!
19:13 <@edavis10> salvor: thanks for coming
19:13 < meineerde> salvor: thanks
19:13 < salvor> see you soon
19:13 <@edavis10> the_g_cat: how requested is a wiki api?
19:13 -!- salvor [d41e7a87@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.30.122.135] has quit [Quit: I have webchat]
19:13 < meineerde> edavis10: does it make sense before the file+docs merge?
19:13 <@edavis10> (I've seen a few people page scrape the wiki pages)
19:14 <@edavis10> meineerde: yes, the merge will probably be Documents into Files so the Files API will stay around
19:14 < the_g_cat> edavis10: there were a couple of people looking to automatically insert stuff in the wikis
19:14 < meineerde> edavis10: makes sense.
19:14 <@edavis10> the_g_cat: can you pull up their comments for me sometime for my own reference?
19:15 <@edavis10> users, news, files, and wiki pages.... hmmm
19:15 < the_g_cat> edavis10: mostly forum stuff, I'll try to dig them out
19:15 <@edavis10> and issues and projects
19:15 < the_g_cat> but it was more "how can I do this" rather that "I need to do this because"
19:16 <@edavis10> here's my concern. If I commit two these 4 apis, that will be all I can do for 1.1 and it will be tough to get them all done.
19:16 <@edavis10> if I can get some help on the implementation and (major) testing, I think we can do it
19:16 < the_g_cat> ah, then keep wiki for a future release
19:17 <@edavis10> lets see
19:18 <@edavis10> users would let people manage users automatically like from an external system. So it's useful
19:18 <@edavis10> news would let people post and updates news items. Not really that useful I think
19:18 <@edavis10> files would let people upload files to the project or version so it can be useful. Not as useful as uploading files to an issue but still nice.
19:19 <@edavis10> wikis would let people automatically post content to the wiki, like from external scripts or a publishing systems (e.g. API docs to a wiki page). Pretty useful.
19:20 <@edavis10> I think the order in useful ness would be: projects, issues, users, wikis, files, news
19:20 <@edavis10> any other thoughts?
19:21 <@edavis10> echo
19:22 < meineerde> regarding the wiki, I would raise my hand again. The current data model should be merged with the "default" journals.
19:22 < meineerde> probably before any API stuff.
19:22 < meineerde> but regarding the order of priority, I'm fine
19:22 <@edavis10> meineerde: I don't think merging is needed. The wiki API would only affect the current page (thus creating a historic page however it happens)
19:23 < meineerde> edavis10: then I'm okay. was not aware of that.
19:24 < meineerde> (thought, you would also expose the history somehow, as done in the issues (?))
19:24 <@edavis10> meineerde: yea, I don't think exposing the history and diff stuff in the API is needed yet.  Mostly Create/Update.
19:24 <@edavis10> I'd say post 1.1 once people have started using the basic api
19:24 < phlebas> meineerde: and anyway, the wiki stuff in my journalized version is api compatible
19:25 < meineerde> phlebas: okay, then we are fine.
19:25 <@edavis10> we ok to push the OpenID and LDAP plugin-izing until post 1.1 then?
19:25 < phlebas> i did jump through a couple of hoops for that, but they are clearly marked
19:25 < meineerde> edavis10: +1 these are less important now.
19:26 <@edavis10> meineerde: k, it's more my own goal to move Redmine to be more plugin-ized
19:26 <@edavis10> I got to head out soon too
19:27 < meineerde> edavis10: I would love to see that too. But the schedule is packed now...
19:27 <@edavis10> I think we need to wait on more theme support in 1.1 until Igor and the UX team have finished up some more things.
19:27 < meineerde> yes.
19:27 <@edavis10> meineerde: you and phlebas want to talk about Bundler and Journals real quick?
19:28 < meineerde> phlebas: want to give a short overview?
19:28 < phlebas> well, journals are pretty much where they were 3 weeks ago (i went on holiday in between)
19:29 <@edavis10> http://github.com/finnlabs/acts_as_journalized
19:29 < phlebas> that is, only a couple of tests failing, and these are just some formatting differences with the changes and a few assumptions about how many journals there are
19:30 < phlebas> but they do break the API in some places, most prominently "init_journal" doesn't return the next journal anymore
19:30 < phlebas> because that's automatically created on save
19:31 < phlebas> edavis10: yeah, pretty much
19:31 < phlebas> + the journals branch on finnlabs/redmine
19:31 <@edavis10> phlebas: want to give a short Twitter-size of what it does?  What new things it can do? (I know but others might not)
19:32 < meineerde> A short overview for the uninitiated: We took the acts_as_events and acts_as_activity and the issue journals model and merged it together.
19:32 < phlebas> we based that merge on the excellent vestal_versions rails plugin
19:32 < meineerde> so we have an api such that each model can have a history (journal) with related activity entries and notifications (events)
19:32  * the_g_cat claps with both hands
19:33 < the_g_cat> sounds good :-)
19:33 < phlebas> journals can be used as events, because they encode the changes a model has gone through
19:33 < phlebas> wiki versions have been completely removed and replaced with acts_as_journalized as well
19:33 < phlebas> on creation, a journal triggers the mailer
19:33 <@edavis10> and it lets plugins add "journals" to any of their own models
19:34 < phlebas> and to query activity, we only ever have to look at the journals table
19:34 <@edavis10> phlebas: to put you on the spot... do you think it can be finished by the end of next week?
19:35 <@edavis10> finished == all tests passing and updated to latest master branch
19:35 < phlebas> I honestly don't know, depends on how many things have changed since my last merge
19:35 < the_g_cat> I don't think that much in these parts
19:36 < phlebas> it's well possible, but i can't be certain
19:36 <@edavis10> phlebas: I'm mostly in the controllers myself
19:36 < meineerde> yeah, very few things changed in the models.
19:36 <@edavis10> phlebas: if it can be updated in the next couple of weeks, I can start reviewing it for master.  We should have it in before mid-November so any bugs can be found before 1.1.
19:37 < phlebas> that's good. I'll need a thorough review of the migrations by somebody else, though
19:37 < phlebas> scary thing, changing so many journals without loosing history
19:37 <@edavis10> yea
19:37 <@edavis10> the_g_cat know's how good I am with migrations :)
19:37 < the_g_cat> even edavis10 didn't get the mail notifications right the first time ;-)
19:37 < the_g_cat> ^_^
19:38 < phlebas> good, so i'll finish that up
19:38 < phlebas> damn
19:38 < phlebas> sth i forgot
19:38 <@edavis10> phlebas: I can run the migrations though all the data I have. demo.redmine.org and my clients generate a lot of cases :)
19:38 < phlebas> tiny thing, could we have "proper" dependency resolution for plugins
19:38 <@edavis10> phlebas: you have a patch for that right?
19:38 < phlebas> I created both issue and patch for that about a month ago, i'd really want that for 1.1
19:39 < phlebas> yeah
19:39 < phlebas> it's pretty small, adds to startup time, but nothing else
19:39 < meineerde> phlebas: just put the patch you created into a r.o issue. I think eric can merge it quick :)
19:39 <@edavis10> it's there
19:39 <@edavis10> #6324
19:39 < gepetto> edavis10: #6324 is http://www.redmine.org/issues/show/6324 "Redmine - Defect #6324: requires_redmine_plugin should defer loading plugins if not all dependencies are met. It has a status of New and is assigned to Eric Davis"
19:40 < phlebas> edavis10: we've been using that internally and on client servers for quite a while now
19:40 < phlebas> so... it works
19:40 <@edavis10> phlebas: ok. I'll take a look at it. I have some plugins that could use it too
19:40 < phlebas> great, thanks
19:40 <@edavis10> should we wait on Bundler for post 1.1 since we are on 2.3.5 still?
19:40  * edavis10 is wrapping up
19:41 < the_g_cat> wait on bundler: yes
19:41 < phlebas> i think bundler can wait
19:41 <@edavis10> k
19:42 <@edavis10> http://www.redmine.org/projects/redmine/versions/20 goals has been updated then
19:42 <@edavis10> that's most of the topics we have
19:42 <@edavis10> we should probably have these more often so they aren't as long. Maybe another one at the beginning of December to get ready for 1.1's release?
19:43 < phlebas> agreed
19:43 < meineerde> how about a monthly meeting of about an hour?
19:44 <@edavis10> meineerde: might work too, need to get teams to have planning and work meetings more too
19:44 <@edavis10> meineerde: want to propose on the wiki?
19:44 <@edavis10> s/wiki/forum/
19:44 < meineerde> like each first wednesday of each minth at 15:00 UTC?
19:44 < meineerde> (and the next one on december)
19:44 < the_g_cat> should work for me
19:45 <@edavis10> meineerde: maybe, I need to check my calendar first
19:45 <@edavis10> thanks for coming everyone, got a lot of things decided on here
19:45 <@edavis10> I took some notes but Khalsa should have the full notes/logs in a few days.
19:46 < meineerde> Thanks all for donating so much of your valuable time. You all rock!
19:46 <@edavis10> meineerde: +1
19:46 < phlebas> thanks all
19:46 <@edavis10> I'll be in #redmine later today if anyone wants to chat more. But first, another meeting and time to start my day.
19:46  * edavis10 parts
19:46 < the_g_cat> later
19:47 < joink> I appreciate all your work :)
19:48 < joink> I can attach the IRC log to the wikipage or just pastebin it if you'd like that?
--- Log closed Wed Oct 20 19:49:20 2010