TeamLeadMeeting3-20101020.log - Redmine

TeamLeadMeeting3 » TeamLeadMeeting3-20101020.log

IRC Log of the Team lead Meeting held at 20101020 in #redmine-dev@Freenode - Aleksander Lygren Toppe, 2010-10-20 19:57

       --- Log opened Wed Oct 20 17:05:51 2010
 :05 < the_g_cat> anyway, here I am... :-P
 :06 < the_g_cat> anyone knows what this "437: thegcat Nick/channel is temporarily unavailable" <= ist about?
 :07 < joink> the_g_cat: probably a netsplit issue
 :07 <+Khalsa> It's still connected on gibson - ghost it
 :07 -!- salvor [d41e7a87@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.30.122.135] has joined #redmine-dev
 :07 <+Khalsa> salvor: \o/
 :07 < salvor> Hello!
 :07 < the_g_cat> salvor /o\
 :08 < salvor> Khalsa, the_g_cat: hi :)
 :08 < edavis10> shall we get started?
 :09 < meineerde> absolutly.
 :09 <+Khalsa> indeed
 :09 < edavis10> Khalsa: you said you could lead the first part a bit?
 :09 <+Khalsa> Ok sure
 :10 <+Khalsa> yeah so pretty much everyone knows everyone here, if not I'm Muntek, and the rest of the relevant list is here: http://www.redmine.org/wiki/redmine/TeamLeadMeeting3
 :10 <+Khalsa> Add yourself if you haven't
 :10 -!- igor13 [~ibalk@173-125-71-162.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
 :11 <+Khalsa> We'll start with the checkins from the leads
 :11 <+Khalsa> I'll go ahead and start  -
 :11 <+Khalsa> Docs are looking good we have the beta of the newly created user docs going well
 :12 < edavis10> Khalsa: can you op me when you get a sec (update topic)
 :12 -!- mode/#redmine-dev [+o Khalsa] by ChanServ
 :12 -!- mode/#redmine-dev [+o edavis10] by Khalsa
 :12 -!- edavis10 changed the topic of #redmine-dev to: Information about dev meetings is at http://www.redmine.org/wiki/redmine/DevMeetings - http://www.redmine.org/wiki/redmine/TeamLeadMeeting3
 :12 <@Khalsa> You can see them here: http://docs.redmight.com/ - if you want to help ping me
 :12 <@Khalsa> meineerde is working on a plugin to help make them more usable (namely css and sidebar issues)
 :13 <@Khalsa> so docs have had some fair movement, though we can always use more help.
 :13 <@edavis10> Khalsa: those public now? (can I tweet?)
 :13 <@Khalsa> I don't know the chances of moving the new docs to redmine.org, due to the css restrictions
 :13 <@Khalsa> edavis10: yeah go ahead and tweet
 :13 < salvor> anything about translations (how do we maintain, when, etc.) ?
 :13 <@Khalsa> edavis10: focus on getting help fixing them if you can :)
 :14 <@Khalsa> salvor: I'd say once we get them cleaned up with meineerde's plugins - that would be the time to start translations
 :14 <@Khalsa> also there are a handful of pages that are not "OK" (you will see this at the top) that need confirmation of 1.x feature changes
 :15 < meineerde> Khalsa: I'm still unsure if it is a good idea to handle them as a "normal" wiki page. or as a separate object... But well, I think, I'm figuring it out...
 :15 <@Khalsa> I know there are a bunch of issues on r.o assigned to me that need some action, and I will act on those probably starting next week
 :15 -!- ibalk [~ibalk@173-125-71-162.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #redmine-dev
 :15 < meineerde> Also please applause Khalsa for his awesome work of ripping the docs out of his contacts hands :)
 :15 <@Khalsa> Any questions about docs before we move on?
 :16 <@edavis10> Khalsa: yes
 :16 < ibalk> khalsa i put someone on docks hopefully will have some version in november
 :16 <@edavis10> Khalsa: so 1) they are still a work in progress as far as writing them is concerned, correct? 2) they need some extra support to be added to Redmine.org (css and/or code).  Correct?
 :16 < meineerde> Khalsa: a minor proposal: can we get rid of most of the colorful icons in the docs?
 :17 -!- ibalk is now known as igor13
 :17 <@Khalsa> edavis10: yes absolutelly, they still need some feature checking and flushing out but they are definetly in a useable state now, 2 - yes these are the issues meineerde is hoping to create plugins for
 :17 <@Khalsa> meineerde: which/why ?
 :18 < meineerde> Khalsa: it's a bit to "flashy" for my taste. kinda hard to read...
 :18 <@Khalsa> meineerde: we can dull down the icons much more easily once the css is 'set'
 :19 < meineerde> Khalsa: understood. I will do my task.
 :19 <@edavis10> Khalsa: I wonder if we can start porting them now and just have the non-supported markup render into nothing (e.g. stripped out)
 :19 <@Khalsa> meineerde: these were donated by that same user, on the roadmap is changing these to some CC-compatible icons
 :19 <@edavis10> Khalsa: but very good job, I get a lot of negative feedback about the existing docs
 :20 <@Khalsa> edavis10: for end-users these docs are 1000x better
 :20 <@Khalsa> the admin and developer docs still need some loving, mostly because I don't have knowledge on these to use
 :20 <@edavis10> Khalsa: agreed
 :20 <@Khalsa> or for the admin stuff I have some internal notes I need to extract still
 :22 < salvor> (+1 for the awesome job ; sorry I didn't help that much, congrats for all you've done)
 :23 <@edavis10> Khalsa: should I talk about the development team now?
 :23 <@Khalsa> the_g_cat: want to talk about issue triage before edavis10 takes over for the rest of the teams?
 :23 <@edavis10> haha
 :23 <@Khalsa> :D
 :24 <@edavis10> if team.lead.missing? then team.lead = edavis10 end
 :24 < the_g_cat> mmh, not much to say about triage, other than a lot of people seem to use trunk without really knowing what that's implying
 :24 < the_g_cat> i.e. each time edavis10 breaks something, I have 3 more issues to take care of
 :24  * the_g_cat coughs
 :24 < the_g_cat> ;-)
 :24  * edavis10 creates an unstable-trunk branch ;)
 :24 < meineerde> until recently, trunk was a rather save bet. Only as edavis10 started messing with routes, some issues occured
 :25 < meineerde> but I think, this is okay.
 :25 < the_g_cat> meineerde: not only that
 :25 <@Khalsa> I think we can address that a little bit on the redmineinstall page, just mention that trunk is currently slightly unstable - use a release
 :25 < salvor> I have a problem about triage, if I can...
 :25 <@edavis10> the_g_cat: would a News item help with that? e.g. "trunk will be unstalbe for the next X months, please don't use in production unless you know what you are doing."
 :25 < salvor> igor13 is not in the list of possible assignees, is it normal ?
 :25 -!- ibalk [~ibalk@173-125-71-162.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #redmine-dev
 :25 -!- igor13 [~ibalk@173-125-71-162.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
 :25 -!- ibalk is now known as igor13
 :25 < the_g_cat> but it wasn't meant as a negative problem towards edavis10, rather that we should make really clear that trunk is not meant to be stable
 :25  * igor13 has bad connection
 :26 <@edavis10> salvor: igor13 isn't a Project member. igor13 want to open an issue for JPL about that?
 :26 < the_g_cat> edavis10: no, trunk _is_ unstable, period
 :26 < salvor> edavis10: as team lead for UX he should
 :26 <@edavis10> igor13: I'll do it for you
 :26 < meineerde> hmmm, I think, the other way round that we should try to make it more stable
 :26 < meineerde> not release-stable, just stable enough for me to be usable :)
 :27 <@edavis10> meineerde: the problem with making trunk stable is there is no way to make large changes to Redmine then.
 :27 <@Khalsa> ^
 :27 < meineerde> edavis10: if we move to git (hint, hint), we could open feature-branches
 :27 <@edavis10> meineerde: we have the tags and stable branches and a 6 month release cycle now for users to stay up to date
 :27 < salvor> edavis10: topic branches ? :(
 :27 <@Khalsa> I would rather have trunk unstable and changes in than stable
 :27 < the_g_cat> meineerde: it's stable enough for me too, but some less savvy people who don't know how to apply patches and use trunk is somewhat hard to support
 :28 <@Khalsa> plus, we have regular point releases now - people should use them
 :28 <@edavis10> moving to git will take a lot of work and signoff.
 :28 < meineerde> on the other hand, if we keep the ~6 month release cycle, it should also be okay. We just have to make sure to get the thing stable until a release
 :28 < the_g_cat> edavis10: moving to git won't make trunk more stable ;-)
 :28 <@edavis10> part of the unstable is my fault, I'm not testing as hard as I can be so minor bugs crep in.
 :29 -!- ibalk [~ibalk@173-125-71-162.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #redmine-dev
 :29 < meineerde> the 1.0 release with a few ugly bugs in it were a bit unfortunate...
 :29 <@edavis10> meineerde: yea, 1.0 was rushed out through the RC stage and we lost a lot of help
 :30 <@edavis10> back to the_g_cat's issue, should we make some kind of notice that "trunk is unstable"?
 :30 -!- igor13 [~ibalk@173-125-71-162.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
 :30 <@Khalsa> edavis10: seconded
 :31 < meineerde> edavis10: +1
 :31 < the_g_cat> I can live with that too
 :31 < ibalk> edavis10 +1
 :31 < salvor> agreed
 :31 < joink> +1 Would be nice, but trunk is per definition unstable :)
 :31 -!- ibalk is now known as igo13r
 :31 < meineerde> this should then be included into the release policy
 :31 -!- igo13r is now known as igor13
 :31 <@edavis10> News item + note to Install/Upgrade?
 :31 <@edavis10> meineerde: "this" ?
 :31 < the_g_cat> would work for me
 :32 <@edavis10> I can add the news item, who wants to update the docs?
 :32 < meineerde> edavis10: trunk being unstable and the string advisory to ionly use stable releases in production
 :32 <@Khalsa> I'll take the note on redmineinstall page
 :33 <@edavis10> meineerde: added
 :34 < the_g_cat> not really much else from me then
 :34 <@edavis10> the_g_cat: Question
 :35 <@edavis10> the_g_cat: has our process of passing issues to me to feedback or commits been working?
 :35 < the_g_cat> mostly yes, if not I'll ping you around here :-)
 :36 <@edavis10> ok, I just wanted to check to make sure
 :36 < salvor> is there anything to do against spam users / users who think this is a demo instance ?
 :36 < the_g_cat> <blink> ! :-D
 :36 < meineerde> salvor: there are about 1-3 issue I close every day
 :37 < salvor> yes I noticed that ;) I close some issues too sometimes...
 :37 < meineerde> unfortunately, we are currently unable to delete users, delete wiki pages or delete forum posts
 :37 <@edavis10> salvor: I just delete or clear the spam content I can and open an issue for JPL to lock the user
 :37 < meineerde> to the code of conduct is not really enforced (apart from the two users locked by jpl because of explicit tickets)
 :37 < the_g_cat> same procedure here
 :38 <@Khalsa> meineerde: those were only done cause I sent him multiple emails about it
 :38 < salvor> yes, but it's really annoying, don't you think so ?
 :38 < salvor> maybe JPL could give us more permissions about that
 :38 <@Khalsa> salvor: underlying issue is we don't have access to redmine.org to actively enforce it
 :38 <@edavis10> salvor: yes but until we get more permissions or the ability to create/install plugins for it, it will have to do
 :38 <@edavis10> salvor: get in line for permissions, I've been asking for over a year now
 :39 < salvor> ok, I'll try my best to convince him
 :39 < meineerde> salvor: yes, but what can you do about it? Let the message brightly flash? Or let every user actually type: "This is not a test issue."?
 :39 <@edavis10> meineerde: <blink>
 :40 < meineerde> salvor: +1
 :40 < salvor> meineerde: at least we could have permissions to delete spam users ourselves, and delete issues too
 :40 < joink> meineerde: if you check if the user have not created any issues/content before, the nag message could be quite intrusive.
 :40 < salvor> anyway, next subject :)
 :41 <@Khalsa> I'm not going to bring up the governence issue here (again), but lots of these issues relate back to that
 :42 < meineerde> Khalsa: I would like to include a note into the minutes to try to get JPL in here next time (i.e. before 1.1) to specifically discuss governance.
 :42 < meineerde> but that would be all for today.
 :42 <@Khalsa> edavis10: rest of team updates please :)
 :43 <@edavis10> Khalsa: not all of them
 :43 <@edavis10> Development team
 :43 < salvor> sent him an email, he wasn't at home..
 :43 < salvor> maybe he will try to join us later
 :43 <@edavis10> 1) Any thoughts about me taking the lead on this team?
 :44 < meineerde> edavis10: you are the most active core dev currently. if not you, than nobody.
 :44 < salvor> does it make any difference ?
 :44 <@Khalsa> 1 - This is a governence issue, but for all practical considerations ou already are as JPL is awol and doesn't answer roadmap issues/emails
 :44 < salvor> in reality, you are the team lead these months..
 :44 <@edavis10> salvor: I'd like to start setting up subteams so people can contribute more
 :44 -!- igor13 [~ibalk@173-125-71-162.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
 :45 <@edavis10> (and led their own parts)
 :46 -!- ibalk [~ibalk@173-125-71-162.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #redmine-dev
 :46 <@edavis10> ok, I'll take over the lead for now. JPL can have it back when he's more active again
 :46 -!- ibalk is now known as igor13
 :47 < salvor> I think everybody would be fine with that (including him I presume)
 :47 <@edavis10> I've been doing a lot of refactoring of the controllers to make it easier to add in some more apis for 1.1. Some are ready but others still need a lot of work.
 :47 <@edavis10> these have been causing some bugs to appear, which the_g_cat has really helped out with fixing
 :48 <@edavis10> salvor has also done a great job over the past few months with bugs and applying patches. It's helped me a lot and I"m sure many users are grateful
 :48 < salvor> as everybody knows trunk is unstable, there's no pb with that
 :49  * salvor blushes..
 :49 <@edavis10> meineerde, the_g_cat, and Khalsa have also been great with sending me git patches for trunk.  I've been really happy with the quality of them and they are saving me a ton of time.
 :50 < salvor> already said that, but I really think we need to enlarge the committers team so that you don't have to review every tiniest thing
 :50 <@edavis10> overall, I think the Dev process is starting to come togeather nicely.  There are still rough edges but it's workable.
 :50 < salvor> yes
 :51 -!- igor13 [~ibalk@173-125-71-162.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
 :51 <@edavis10> Big thing for me, if I compare Redmine Dev one year ago it was very solo. Not many people were talking and everyone worked on their own code.  Now, I feel it's actually a team of people working togeather.
 :51 -!- ibalk [~ibalk@173-125-71-162.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #redmine-dev
 :51 <@edavis10> salvor: +1, more contributors is good
 :51 < the_g_cat> :-)
 :51 <@edavis10> So basically, thanks!
 :51 -!- ibalk is now known as igor13
 :52 <@edavis10> I have more comments about 1.1 but I'll save them for later
 :52 <@edavis10> Any questions or comments about Dev before I move on?
 :52 <@edavis10> (Plugin team next)
 :52 <@Khalsa> neg
 :53 <@edavis10> 3 2 1 ...
 :54 < salvor> go
 :54 <@edavis10> Plugin team: not much work here.  The plugin API is pretty stable now, though there are a few hook requests.
 :54 <@edavis10> One big thing that needs to be thought about for 1.1 is deprecating old hooks and APIs
 :55 <@edavis10> I have some thoughts about it that I'll enter into an issue but I see that being a problem the closer we get
 :55 <@edavis10> s/we get/trunk gets away from the stable branch/
 :56 < the_g_cat> edavis10: are you still planning on throwing out hooks but the view hooks?
 :56 -!- igor13 [~ibalk@173-125-71-162.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
 :56 <@edavis10> the_g_cat: no hard plans but they need to be reviewed.  Will be post 1.1 unless someone wants to look at them (no rush)
 :57 < salvor> what about our policy no adding new hooks then ?
 :57 < salvor> s/no/on/
 :57 < meineerde> edavis10: basically I support this. the remaining hooks in the controller can be removed if the large methods are cut into smaller ones (and some private methods)
 :57 <@edavis10> another update is I want to try to start moving some of the Redmine core code into official plugins.  Going to start with OpenID and LDAP auth.
 :58 <@Khalsa> edavis10: I'll be leaving soon to catch a flight, I'll review the meeting log and post it once I'm at the airport. Please conduct the rest of the meeting :)
 :58 <@edavis10> salvor: mostly the policy is "is it named correctly? is it in a useful place for other developers? would I use this hook?" :)
 :58 < meineerde> Khalsa: thanks for your time. Have a good ride.
 :58 <@edavis10> Khalsa: thanks, anyone logging?
 :59 <@Khalsa> edavis10: I always log everything always
 :59 <@edavis10> k
 :59 < salvor> do we talk now about rails upgrade ? it's conditionned nearly exclusively by plugins..
 :59 <@edavis10> meineerde: the plugins could use some more docs about the different ways of hooking, that's like Khalsa's comment about developer docs
 :00 <@edavis10> salvor: after the updates
 :00 < salvor> ok
 :00 < meineerde> edavis10: yeah. that's still in my todo list: how to override methods and include stuff
 :00 < meineerde> wiki:Hooks at the bottom :)
 :00 <@edavis10> so that's pretty much the plugins. Nothing big right now, but we need to think ahead a bit since we are post 1.0 now
 :00 < gepetto> meineerde: wiki: wiki:Hooks is http://www.redmine.org/projects/redmine/wiki/Hooks "Redmine - Hooks - Redmine"
 :01 < salvor> edavis10: how about "core plugins" organization ?
 :01 < meineerde> edavis10: I (or better phlebas) have some special plugins to present. do you like it now or later?
 :01 < salvor> do we put them in a specific project under redmine.org ? specific website like radiant ?
 :01 <@edavis10> meineerde: later, we have the Journals as a whole adgenda item
 :01 < meineerde> k.
 :02 <@edavis10> salvor: still on Redmine.org with a category.  They will still be bundled with the main install so users won't know the difference
 :02 < meineerde> salvor: for now, I would develop inside the main repo.
 :03 < salvor> ok
 :03 <@edavis10> salvor meineerde: like how Redmine's acts_as_activity and the others are done
 :03 <@edavis10> Releae team now
 :03 <@edavis10> Release rather. I've done enough releases now that I've created a process for them wiki:ReleaseProcess
 :03 < gepetto> edavis10: wiki:ReleaseProcess is http://www.redmine.org/projects/redmine/wiki/ReleaseProcess "Redmine - ReleaseProcess - Redmine"
 :04 <@edavis10> still all manual but I'm going ot start to automate parts of it for the 1.0.3 release (end October)
 :05 <@edavis10> haven't seen any bugs or problems in the prcess, anyone seen anything? (other than actual code bugs)
 :05 <@edavis10> (and FYI: Redmine has been on the top of Rubyforge's active list for weeks. And is close to 350,000 downloads.)
 :06 < meineerde> edavis10: It all went great. Thanks for your time here.
 :06 <@edavis10> k
 :07 <@edavis10> Translations Team. I don't think Azamat is here.
 :07 < salvor> the process is a bit obscure to me
 :07 <@edavis10> salvor: the release process?
 :07 < khaase> edavis10: to be fair, no one is using rubyforge anymore
 :07 < salvor> I mean the translations, is it documented somewhere ?
 :07 <@edavis10> salvor: ah, not really
 :08 <@Khalsa> Pretty much azamat handles all of it :)
 :08 < salvor> introducing english translations everywhere when we add a new key may not be the best way to go
 :08 <@edavis10> We are building some scripts to make i18n changes easier, thanks to the_g_cat.  Most of these are Rake in the locales namespace.
 :08 < salvor> yes, seen it
 :09 <@edavis10> salvor: the en ones are duplicated so translaters can find them in their locales
 :09 < the_g_cat> salvor: i18n 0.4 has an option to specify a default
 :09 < salvor> it's pretty difficult to see what percentage of each locale file is up to date
 :09 < the_g_cat> we won't have to duplicate them anymore once we use that
 :09 < salvor> the_g_cat: great! ok
 :10 < salvor> edavis10: yes, understood.
 :10 <@edavis10> the_g_cat: interesting. Might want to ask Azamat what he thinks.  I'm ok running the update locales script myself but I'm just using :en
 :10 <@edavis10> going to go to the next team, we need to keep moving :)
 :10 < the_g_cat> I think we could default to en in the future, have en as a default, and translators can submit the strings missing in their locale
 :11 <@edavis10> the_g_cat: yea, that might work
 :11 <@edavis10> PR team: I've been keeping up on twitter and trying to blog about Redmine as much as possible.  Seeing a lot of new projects and companies start using Redmine now.
 :12 <@Khalsa> Any movement on redmineblog.com?
 :12 <@edavis10> From the looks of it, we are directly competing with Jira now. Most of the people I talk to barely even consider Trac anymore due to the lack of multi-project.
 :12 <@edavis10> Khalsa: first item after the updates, which I have some good news about... :)
 :13 <@edavis10> I've also been talking with James from puppet labs and I might be able to do a in-person hackfest/bugmash at their offices.
 :14 <@edavis10> still in planning but it would help get some more people into the project (lot of local Rails developers and Redmine users)
 :14 <@Khalsa> In portland?
 :14 <@edavis10> Summary: not a lot of activity but a few things going on and things are improving.
 :14 <@edavis10> Khalsa: yes, in Portland.
 :15 <@edavis10> until Redmine World Tour 2012 (joking.... maybe)
 :15 <@edavis10> Is Igor around for UX?
 :15 < meineerde> There is still the idea of wiki:RedmineCamp but nothing substantial by now
 :15 < gepetto> meineerde: wiki:RedmineCamp is http://www.redmine.org/projects/redmine/wiki/RedmineCamp "Redmine - RedmineCamp - Redmine"
 :16 <@edavis10> meineerde: yea, I still like that idea but I want to try a smaller event first.  Unless someone else wants to run it :)
 :16 <@Khalsa> Party at my house!
 :16 < the_g_cat> Khalsa: my ticket's on you ;-)
 :17 < meineerde> edavis10: alright. we might come up with something in berlin first too. redmine world meeting can then be done sometimes next year or so...
 :17 <@edavis10> meineerde: I have a passport now :)
 :17 < meineerde> edavis10: YAY!
 :17 <@edavis10> the_g_cat: want to talk about user support a bit to wrap up?
 :17 <@edavis10> (wrap up this part)
 :18 < the_g_cat> mmh, I'm under the impression more and more people try to fit redmine into a whole it's not shaped to fill and swing by the forums waiting for some magic to happen
 :19 < the_g_cat> which is somehow good because more people use redmine
 :19 < the_g_cat> but it seems what redmine can't do isn't always clear to everyone
 :19 < the_g_cat> not much we can do about that though
 :20 < the_g_cat> having the REST stuff somewhat more complete/stable would probably be a step in the right direction though
 :20 <@edavis10> the_g_cat: anything we can do to improve it? (e.g. private issues will make Redmine as a helpdesk work)
 :20 <@edavis10> REST? for integrations?
 :20 < the_g_cat> yes
 :20 <@edavis10> good point
 :21 -!- Igor13 [~ibalk@c-98-216-152-43.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #redmine-dev
 :21 < meineerde> edavis10: that's exactly the point. we are wildering in jira territories (with workflows and management stuff) and in otrs land with helpdesk funcitonality
 :21 < the_g_cat> and the other stuff: private issues, complete control over what fields to show to which role, and so on
 :21  * Igor13 is really sorry for his connection
 :22 <@edavis10> is that a place we want to wander into in the long term? (assuming development can keep up)
 :22 < the_g_cat> or some totally (half-wonk) stuff, like randomised issue IDs (whatever that is good for, not sure I got it)
 :22 <@Khalsa> the_g_cat: help desk
 :23 < Igor13> i personally thing we should wonder more in to UX before adding new major functions
 :23 < meineerde> edavis10: some things are good (like private issues and a more granular permission system) but the extreme like permissions for each field should be avoided
 :23 < Igor13> meineerde +1
 :23 < the_g_cat> Khalsa: no, it was more "I don't want other parts of the company being able to poll some links and make metrics about other parts of the company...", so a trust issue I guess
 :23 <@edavis10> meineerde: what about supporting plugins for that? non-core
 :24  * edavis10 is thinking long term vision type things
 :24  * Khalsa ^C+ad
 :24 < meineerde> edavis10: probably a good idea. but then, the permission system must become pluggable and extensible
 :25  * salvor would really like to see those things in plugins
 :25 < meineerde> (and permissions should be defined by the model, not by the controller)
 :25 <@edavis10> ok
 :25  * Igor13 would like to see whole Redmine more MVC like with better separation between data, business logic and UI
 :25 <@edavis10> Igor13: good thing the UX team is next ;)
 :26 < salvor> ahah
 :26 <@edavis10> the_g_cat: other than those requests, anything else with user support?
 :26 < Igor13> edavis10 thats good as I got better connection lets hope it would be stable long enouph
 :26 < the_g_cat> nope
 :26 <@edavis10> the_g_cat: good
 :26 <@edavis10> Igor13: go ahead
 :27  * edavis10 still wants to talk about the redmien blog and 1.1 features before the end of the meeting
 :28 < Igor13> edavis10 short term or long term? because realistically I do not see  anything of what i will propose as going into 1.1
 :28 < Igor13> well actually small things might
 :28 < the_g_cat> left handside project menu! :-)
 :29 <@edavis10> Igor13: this is mostly an update. What has UX done, what problems does it have, etc. Not really suited for long term planning.
 :31 < Igor13> we have list of about 20-30 fixes small or big we would like to see implemented at some point (some where discussed on forum like issue relations and merge of documents)
 :31 < Igor13> some just sitting in my private system
 :31 < Igor13> the question I have is how do we do about implementation of them
 :31 < Igor13> given the limited resources edavis10 has
 :31 <@edavis10> they need to be issues on redmine.org first, so people can comment on them
 :32 <@edavis10> then patches would be good, unless it's something really cool that I want to do in my "spare time".
 :32 < Igor13> we have two forumtopics on redmine.org with bunch of comments on issue relations and merge of files and documents
 :32 < meineerde> edavis10: you are lying dude. You said, you have no spare time :p
 :33 < Igor13> i will create more issues on other staff in next 2 weeks as i finally got some time for typing staff in :)
 :33 <@edavis10> meineerde: "spare time" is a variable which is -100 right now
 :33 < Igor13> edavis10 :)
 :33 <@edavis10> Igor13: have those forum topics been discussed enough to be scoped and turned into issues?
 :33 < Igor13> but in general I think we should work out some kind of standard workflow
 :33 < Igor13> edavis10 i think so
 :34 < meineerde> Igor13: could you try to summarize the forum topics into an issue for implementation?
 :34 < Igor13> meineerde thats what I was going to do next 2 weeks
 :35 <@edavis10> Igor13: a workflow would work but I always perfer to work without a standard one first and see what kind of workflow emerges (i.e. not trying to over process something)
 :35 < meineerde> Igor13: great. Then we can do it. Merging files and docs shouldn't be that hard datastructure wise...
 :35 < Igor13> meineerde I think so as well
 :35 <@edavis10> meineerde just signed up!
 :35 < meineerde> edavis10: and I'm actually kinda interested. Just don't know when...
 :36 <@edavis10> Igor13: big thing for me is to try and do these in stages. If we try to do them all at once, nothing will get done.
 :36 <@edavis10> meineerde: as I
 :36 < Igor13> edavis10 actually i think it's already emerged in the form that we suggest something from UX group, discuss on forum, 4-5 month later turn into issues
 :36 < Igor13> edavis10 agreed
 :37 < Igor13> edavis10 i will try to split them into iterations next week or so
 :37 <@edavis10> great
 :37 < Igor13> edavis10 as for example merge of files and docs if big UI overhaul
 :37 < the_g_cat> I'd have one "meta"-question about using plugins with compiled parts, don't know when that would fit
 :37  * Igor13 was kind of overloaded with unrelated things over last 2.5 month :(
 :39 <@edavis10> Igor13: any other UX news?
 :39 < Igor13> also guys I would open up demo at www.taskpoint.com/v1 in a week time frame as well with what we did to UX and would love to see your feedback on what of that should go back to the core
 :39 < Igor13> we would love to contribute some of our code back to core redmine
 :40 < Igor13> but the question is what you guys want to see there
 :40 < Igor13> just a disclaimer it's a lot different in some parts then core
 :40 <@edavis10> great, let me know once it's ready. A forum thread in Development would be best if it's public
 :41 < Igor13> edavis10 will let you know, it's not public yet no
 :41 < Igor13> still experimental
 :41 < Igor13> the public one but like 3 month old is at www.taskpoint.com/demo still a lot different then core
 :41 <@edavis10> I think we need to move on, we are almost at 2 hours and still have some major discussion points
 :41 < the_g_cat> ACK
 :42 < meineerde> are any teams left?
 :42 <@edavis10> Igor13: thanks for the update, I'm interesting is seeing what you have when it's ready.
 :42 <@edavis10> meineerde: no teams, now topics.
 :42 <@edavis10> First topic is the redmineblog. I'll make it quick...
 :43 < Igor13> edavis10 quick question any particular reason you do not like jquery in the redmine?
 :43 <@edavis10> I haven't been able to really write about Redmine there that much but last night I've done a lot to open it up to new contributors.
 :43 <@edavis10> Igor13: can you open a forum thread on that? It's a long answer :)
 :44 <@edavis10> still a work in progress but most of the content is now at http://github.com/edavis10/redmineblog and I'll be moving the site over to this code soon
 :44 < Igor13> edavis10 ok will do
 :45 <@edavis10> my goal is to let people write their own posts for the blog and get more documentation for Redmine. More "here is how I use Redmine", tutorials, and review content
 :45 <@edavis10> once it's ready and live, I'll mention it on the forums/news so everyone will know it's there.
 :46 <@edavis10> (also would be useful to have people edit older content like the Gmail post I have)
 :46 <@edavis10> FIN
 :46 < the_g_cat> edavis10: short "admin" tricks and such, or more user-oriented?
 :46 <@edavis10> the_g_cat: both Redmine Admin and User focused
 :46 < the_g_cat> ok
 :46 < the_g_cat> I might have some stuff for admins then ^_^"
 :46 <@edavis10> the_g_cat: not developer or plugin developer though. (other than major news like Rails 3 support, etc)
 :47 <@edavis10> the_g_cat: good
 :47 <@edavis10> next topic is a big one, what are our plans for Redmine 1.1
 :47 < the_g_cat> edavis10: make it look like whitehouse.org out of a single plugin
 :47  * the_g_cat ducks
 :48 <@edavis10> random
 :48 <@edavis10> I'll start with 1.1
 :49 <@edavis10> It's scheduled to be released in December (as RC probably) so we will be feature freezing at the start of December (little over a month away)
 :49 <@edavis10> I've posted some thoughts about it but I haven't been able to keep to my schedule I hoped http://www.redmine.org/boards/4/topics/17065
 :50 <@edavis10> seeing that we really only have a month left, we need to decide what major features should 1.1 have
 :50 < the_g_cat> I don't think we will make rails 3, will we?
 :50 <@edavis10> It realy has:
 :50 <@edavis10> * New Gantt chart (buggy but working)
 :50 < meineerde> edavis10: from the topics, I think, we should focus on gantt and the rest stuff.
 :50 <@edavis10> * code cleanup
 :50 < the_g_cat> agreed, Gantt, cleanup/REST
 :50 <@edavis10> * better email notification options
 :50 < meineerde> extracting ldap and openid is minor priority for me, rails 3 is not going to happen for 1.1
 :51 < the_g_cat> edavis10: regarding the mail notifications, you seem to have a "grander" scheme, care to elaborate?
 :52 <@edavis10> the_g_cat: just trying to make it easier to have fine grained control over when you are notified.  And also refacotring notifications so they happen in a singe area of code instead of all over the place.
 :52 < meineerde> edavis10: (this is also part of acts_as_journalized btw)
 :52 <@edavis10> the_g_cat: only real new feautures would be more options and maybe a plugin api for adding your own. (post 1.1 though)
 :52  * Igor13 personally would love to see end user to be able to set up their personal notifications via UI rather admin doing it via command line
 :53 <@edavis10> Igor13: it already have a web UI for admins and users
 :53 <@edavis10> My Account
 :53 < Igor13> edavis10 i mean notification when issue due date is approaching
 :53 <@edavis10> unless you are talking about Redminders
 :53 < Igor13> edavis10 yes about them
 :53 < meineerde> edavis10: what is missing is selecting what notification types interest me.
 :54 < the_g_cat> mmh, I had thought about that some times too, and maybe even adding a digest option
 :54 <@edavis10> reminders would need some work for that, would be a good feature request but needs some infrastructure first
 :54 < the_g_cat> haven't gotten anywhere near it though
 :54 <@edavis10> meineerde: so like "wiki and issue events only" ?
 :54 < meineerde> yes.
 :55 < phlebas> edavis10: that would be pretty easy to do
 :55 <@edavis10> meineerde: that's also where I'd like to take notifications. Probably not for 1.1 (unless someone wants to do it)
 :55 < phlebas> with journals
 :55 <@edavis10> phlebas: assuming only journals create notifications which might not be the case.  A standard interface to notifications would work I'd think (where journals would call the interface)
 :56 <@edavis10> since this is a big one, should we 1) stay on Rails 2.3.5, 2) upgrade to Rails 2.3.latest, or 3) try to upgrade to Rails 3 (potential of breaking plugins)
 :57 < meineerde> I would stay on 2.3.5 for 1.1 but upgrade to 2.3.head directly after release.
 :57 < the_g_cat> edavis10: well, we'd need an unified interface for events and mail notifications then, they really are the same thing I'd say
 :58 < phlebas> the_g_cat: journals could be events, because they hold the changes
 :58 < phlebas> journal creation could trigger mail notification
 :58  * Igor13 would think that move to Rails 3 is not viable at this moment
 :58 < Igor13> the_g_cat +1
 :59 < salvor> I tried to make tiny engines plugins work on Rails 3, didn't managed to do that (migrations, view overriding, etc. are not present in core, and engines plugin is not maintained anymore for Rails 3.x)
 :59 < salvor> so "NO" to Rails 3
 :59 <@edavis10> meineerde: I would agree but not on the upgrade right away. It would split trunk/stable and might have a support cost. I'd rather upgrade more into a release where trunk/stable have already diverged (e.g. like where we are now with 1.1./1.0.3)
 :59 <@edavis10> salvor: my fears too. Even after I talked with the core team about it, they must have forgot about it and decided to rewrite things.
 :00 < salvor> yes, saw your discussions with wycats
 :00 < salvor> maybe with Rails 3.1
 :00 <@edavis10> from what I've heard the core focus of Rails 3.1 is engines but I don't know if their "engines" will be compatibable or upgrade-able from our "engines"
 :01  * Igor13 has to go sorry guys
 :01 <@edavis10> Igor13: thanks for coming
 :01 < salvor> anyway, maybe 2.3.10 would be OK, but maybe it will be too short for 1.1
 :01 <@edavis10> we might run a bit late today
 :01 < salvor> we already know some things break with 2.3.8+
 :02 <@edavis10> salvor: yea though we need to watch for security bugs being so far back on 2.3
 :02 < meineerde> edavis10: nothing came up by now
 :03 <@edavis10> any other opinions about Rails versions or are we in agreement that 1.1 will be Rails 2.3.5 still?
 :03 < meineerde> to summarize: keep 1.1. on rails 2.3.5, upgrade to 2.3.latest sometime after release. Update to 3.x once the engines upgrade path is sorted out.
 :03 -!- MikeXIII [~Mike@bas8-montreal28-1279774628.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
 :03 < salvor> ok for me
 :04 < the_g_cat> meineerde's proposition is ok
 :04 <@edavis10> ok, Redmine 1.1 will be 2.3.5 then
 :05 < meineerde> okay. I think, we have a consent here. We should move on.
 :05 <@edavis10> so other features for 1.1 will be: finishing the Gantt charts and adding REST apis.
 :06 <@edavis10> I know issues and projects are "done" but they are bugging as hell and really hard to use.  I'll fix them but what other APIs should be commit to for 1.1?
 :06 < the_g_cat> edavis10: wiki is IIRC the most asked for
 :06 < salvor> users ?
 :07 < the_g_cat> and maybe users
 :07 < phlebas> users
 :07 < the_g_cat> groups maybe too :-P
 :07 < salvor> glurps
 :07 < salvor> I hate current groups :(
 :08 <@edavis10> salvor: don't you mean principals ;)
 :08 < meineerde> salvor: +1
 :08  * edavis10 checks his refactorings
 :08 < the_g_cat> so do I, I'm planning on chaning the groups to reflect project memberships...
 :08 < salvor> principals too... STI + class reloading is a nightmare in plugins
 :09 <@edavis10> users are ready for REST
 :09 <@edavis10> I'm working on Wikis now
 :10 <@edavis10> time entries, issue moves, project enumerations, files, versions, and news are also ready
 :10 <@edavis10> I vote for users, files, time entries, and news myself. (I plan on using them)
 :11 < meineerde> edavis10: I can live with that.
 :11 <@edavis10> I'm not making a decision, just saying what I'd use :)
 :11 < salvor> users & news for me.
 :12 < meineerde> and so, it becomes a decision :)
 :12 < salvor> so easy :)
 :12 <@edavis10> how about users, news, and files for 1.1?
 :12 <@edavis10> (my idea with files is so scripts can use the API to attach files for releases and things like that)
 :13 < salvor> sorry I've got to go, my girlfriend will kill me if I'm not at home before 8pm...
 :13 < salvor> ok for me ;) thanks for this great meeting guys!
 :13 <@edavis10> salvor: thanks for coming
 :13 < meineerde> salvor: thanks
 :13 < salvor> see you soon
 :13 <@edavis10> the_g_cat: how requested is a wiki api?
 :13 -!- salvor [d41e7a87@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.30.122.135] has quit [Quit: I have webchat]
 :13 < meineerde> edavis10: does it make sense before the file+docs merge?
 :13 <@edavis10> (I've seen a few people page scrape the wiki pages)
 :14 <@edavis10> meineerde: yes, the merge will probably be Documents into Files so the Files API will stay around
 :14 < the_g_cat> edavis10: there were a couple of people looking to automatically insert stuff in the wikis
 :14 < meineerde> edavis10: makes sense.
 :14 <@edavis10> the_g_cat: can you pull up their comments for me sometime for my own reference?
 :15 <@edavis10> users, news, files, and wiki pages.... hmmm
 :15 < the_g_cat> edavis10: mostly forum stuff, I'll try to dig them out
 :15 <@edavis10> and issues and projects
 :15 < the_g_cat> but it was more "how can I do this" rather that "I need to do this because"
 :16 <@edavis10> here's my concern. If I commit two these 4 apis, that will be all I can do for 1.1 and it will be tough to get them all done.
 :16 <@edavis10> if I can get some help on the implementation and (major) testing, I think we can do it
 :16 < the_g_cat> ah, then keep wiki for a future release
 :17 <@edavis10> lets see
 :18 <@edavis10> users would let people manage users automatically like from an external system. So it's useful
 :18 <@edavis10> news would let people post and updates news items. Not really that useful I think
 :18 <@edavis10> files would let people upload files to the project or version so it can be useful. Not as useful as uploading files to an issue but still nice.
 :19 <@edavis10> wikis would let people automatically post content to the wiki, like from external scripts or a publishing systems (e.g. API docs to a wiki page). Pretty useful.
 :20 <@edavis10> I think the order in useful ness would be: projects, issues, users, wikis, files, news
 :20 <@edavis10> any other thoughts?
 :21 <@edavis10> echo
 :22 < meineerde> regarding the wiki, I would raise my hand again. The current data model should be merged with the "default" journals.
 :22 < meineerde> probably before any API stuff.
 :22 < meineerde> but regarding the order of priority, I'm fine
 :22 <@edavis10> meineerde: I don't think merging is needed. The wiki API would only affect the current page (thus creating a historic page however it happens)
 :23 < meineerde> edavis10: then I'm okay. was not aware of that.
 :24 < meineerde> (thought, you would also expose the history somehow, as done in the issues (?))
 :24 <@edavis10> meineerde: yea, I don't think exposing the history and diff stuff in the API is needed yet.  Mostly Create/Update.
 :24 <@edavis10> I'd say post 1.1 once people have started using the basic api
 :24 < phlebas> meineerde: and anyway, the wiki stuff in my journalized version is api compatible
 :25 < meineerde> phlebas: okay, then we are fine.
 :25 <@edavis10> we ok to push the OpenID and LDAP plugin-izing until post 1.1 then?
 :25 < phlebas> i did jump through a couple of hoops for that, but they are clearly marked
 :25 < meineerde> edavis10: +1 these are less important now.
 :26 <@edavis10> meineerde: k, it's more my own goal to move Redmine to be more plugin-ized
 :26 <@edavis10> I got to head out soon too
 :27 < meineerde> edavis10: I would love to see that too. But the schedule is packed now...
 :27 <@edavis10> I think we need to wait on more theme support in 1.1 until Igor and the UX team have finished up some more things.
 :27 < meineerde> yes.
 :27 <@edavis10> meineerde: you and phlebas want to talk about Bundler and Journals real quick?
 :28 < meineerde> phlebas: want to give a short overview?
 :28 < phlebas> well, journals are pretty much where they were 3 weeks ago (i went on holiday in between)
 :29 <@edavis10> http://github.com/finnlabs/acts_as_journalized
 :29 < phlebas> that is, only a couple of tests failing, and these are just some formatting differences with the changes and a few assumptions about how many journals there are
 :30 < phlebas> but they do break the API in some places, most prominently "init_journal" doesn't return the next journal anymore
 :30 < phlebas> because that's automatically created on save
 :31 < phlebas> edavis10: yeah, pretty much
 :31 < phlebas> + the journals branch on finnlabs/redmine
 :31 <@edavis10> phlebas: want to give a short Twitter-size of what it does?  What new things it can do? (I know but others might not)
 :32 < meineerde> A short overview for the uninitiated: We took the acts_as_events and acts_as_activity and the issue journals model and merged it together.
 :32 < phlebas> we based that merge on the excellent vestal_versions rails plugin
 :32 < meineerde> so we have an api such that each model can have a history (journal) with related activity entries and notifications (events)
 :32  * the_g_cat claps with both hands
 :33 < the_g_cat> sounds good :-)
 :33 < phlebas> journals can be used as events, because they encode the changes a model has gone through
 :33 < phlebas> wiki versions have been completely removed and replaced with acts_as_journalized as well
 :33 < phlebas> on creation, a journal triggers the mailer
 :33 <@edavis10> and it lets plugins add "journals" to any of their own models
 :34 < phlebas> and to query activity, we only ever have to look at the journals table
 :34 <@edavis10> phlebas: to put you on the spot... do you think it can be finished by the end of next week?
 :35 <@edavis10> finished == all tests passing and updated to latest master branch
 :35 < phlebas> I honestly don't know, depends on how many things have changed since my last merge
 :35 < the_g_cat> I don't think that much in these parts
 :36 < phlebas> it's well possible, but i can't be certain
 :36 <@edavis10> phlebas: I'm mostly in the controllers myself
 :36 < meineerde> yeah, very few things changed in the models.
 :36 <@edavis10> phlebas: if it can be updated in the next couple of weeks, I can start reviewing it for master.  We should have it in before mid-November so any bugs can be found before 1.1.
 :37 < phlebas> that's good. I'll need a thorough review of the migrations by somebody else, though
 :37 < phlebas> scary thing, changing so many journals without loosing history
 :37 <@edavis10> yea
 :37 <@edavis10> the_g_cat know's how good I am with migrations :)
 :37 < the_g_cat> even edavis10 didn't get the mail notifications right the first time ;-)
 :37 < the_g_cat> ^_^
 :38 < phlebas> good, so i'll finish that up
 :38 < phlebas> damn
 :38 < phlebas> sth i forgot
 :38 <@edavis10> phlebas: I can run the migrations though all the data I have. demo.redmine.org and my clients generate a lot of cases :)
 :38 < phlebas> tiny thing, could we have "proper" dependency resolution for plugins
 :38 <@edavis10> phlebas: you have a patch for that right?
 :38 < phlebas> I created both issue and patch for that about a month ago, i'd really want that for 1.1
 :39 < phlebas> yeah
 :39 < phlebas> it's pretty small, adds to startup time, but nothing else
 :39 < meineerde> phlebas: just put the patch you created into a r.o issue. I think eric can merge it quick :)
 :39 <@edavis10> it's there
 :39 <@edavis10> #6324
 :39 < gepetto> edavis10: #6324 is http://www.redmine.org/issues/show/6324 "Redmine - Defect #6324: requires_redmine_plugin should defer loading plugins if not all dependencies are met. It has a status of New and is assigned to Eric Davis"
 :40 < phlebas> edavis10: we've been using that internally and on client servers for quite a while now
 :40 < phlebas> so... it works
 :40 <@edavis10> phlebas: ok. I'll take a look at it. I have some plugins that could use it too
 :40 < phlebas> great, thanks
 :40 <@edavis10> should we wait on Bundler for post 1.1 since we are on 2.3.5 still?
 :40  * edavis10 is wrapping up
 :41 < the_g_cat> wait on bundler: yes
 :41 < phlebas> i think bundler can wait
 :41 <@edavis10> k
 :42 <@edavis10> http://www.redmine.org/projects/redmine/versions/20 goals has been updated then
 :42 <@edavis10> that's most of the topics we have
 :42 <@edavis10> we should probably have these more often so they aren't as long. Maybe another one at the beginning of December to get ready for 1.1's release?
 :43 < phlebas> agreed
 :43 < meineerde> how about a monthly meeting of about an hour?
 :44 <@edavis10> meineerde: might work too, need to get teams to have planning and work meetings more too
 :44 <@edavis10> meineerde: want to propose on the wiki?
 :44 <@edavis10> s/wiki/forum/
 :44 < meineerde> like each first wednesday of each minth at 15:00 UTC?
 :44 < meineerde> (and the next one on december)
 :44 < the_g_cat> should work for me
 :45 <@edavis10> meineerde: maybe, I need to check my calendar first
 :45 <@edavis10> thanks for coming everyone, got a lot of things decided on here
 :45 <@edavis10> I took some notes but Khalsa should have the full notes/logs in a few days.
 :46 < meineerde> Thanks all for donating so much of your valuable time. You all rock!
 :46 <@edavis10> meineerde: +1
 :46 < phlebas> thanks all
 :46 <@edavis10> I'll be in #redmine later today if anyone wants to chat more. But first, another meeting and time to start my day.
 :46  * edavis10 parts
 :46 < the_g_cat> later
 :47 < joink> I appreciate all your work :)
 :48 < joink> I can attach the IRC log to the wikipage or just pastebin it if you'd like that?
       --- Log closed Wed Oct 20 19:49:20 2010

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